Building, Scaling, and Selling. With Robert Nathan

00:00:00.000 Yeah, and we can have an an extension of
00:00:01.920 Envoy AI down here, too. You're always
00:00:03.560 welcome to
00:00:04.584 >> [laughter]
00:00:04.880 >> Denver office.
00:00:05.840 >> Exactly. So, I think we're ready to just
00:00:07.760 get started. So, obviously very excited
00:00:11.280 to have, in my opinion, I believe KJ's
00:00:13.320 opinion, one of the leaders in the in
00:00:16.120 the
00:00:17.000 founding space within logistics and then
00:00:19.480 freight tech and now AI in in Robert
00:00:22.200 Nathan. So, thank you so much for coming
00:00:23.600 on the show today.
00:00:24.320 >> Thank you very much. Appreciate you guys
00:00:25.680 having me.
00:00:26.280 >> Yeah. Robbie, thank you for making the
00:00:27.480 trip down to our studio. I know it was
00:00:29.560 probably 45 50 minutes, so I know you're
00:00:31.480 busy, but thank you so much for coming
00:00:32.800 down.
00:00:34.080 Um your entrepreneur journey has been
00:00:36.680 across a few different things. It seems
00:00:38.560 like the thread is logistics, but where
00:00:40.600 did your entrepreneur spark start?
00:00:43.160 >> So, it's not that exciting. I started on
00:00:45.480 the loading docks when I was 14 years
00:00:47.480 old. Um during the summertime, I would
00:00:50.160 load trucks. I would count fasteners. It
00:00:53.240 was for a small distribution company
00:00:54.920 that my father had. Um we were sorting
00:00:57.280 screws, shipping them all over Chicago,
00:00:59.880 and that was how I learned about
00:01:01.880 businesses. I'd pull up at a dock,
00:01:05.360 and some would be small companies, some
00:01:07.040 would be big, and
00:01:08.680 all those companies were producing a
00:01:10.800 different product. And that was my sort
00:01:13.600 of entryway into entrepreneurial
00:01:16.240 activity and understanding that if you
00:01:19.000 have an idea, you could build a product,
00:01:21.200 sell it, distribute it, and make the
00:01:23.480 world a better place.
00:01:24.520 >> So, you worked for your dad in the
00:01:25.320 summers, is that right?
00:01:26.240 >> That I Yes, and I don't know if that
00:01:27.800 still happens these days.
00:01:29.920 By the way, I saw your daughter that's
00:01:31.480 working, you know, here and and spending
00:01:33.040 some time, which I think is great. More
00:01:34.960 people need to send their kids to work.
00:01:37.840 And you know, there's different ideas of
00:01:40.280 what type of work, and
00:01:42.160 you know, I think there's a lot of
00:01:44.600 There's just a lot of value that comes
00:01:46.280 from real work and communicating to real
00:01:48.880 people.
00:01:49.960 Everyone's talking about AI, but I think
00:01:53.000 we need to bring the kids back to back
00:01:55.200 to the office.
00:01:56.440 >> I agree totally.
00:01:57.360 >> Yeah, well, okay, so we're going to
00:01:59.280 touch on this a little bit later on as
00:02:00.560 we talk, but you've got two young boys,
00:02:01.960 I've got a daughter that's 1 and 1/2. Is
00:02:03.680 there anything that you're doing with
00:02:04.960 them to help kind of make sure that
00:02:07.040 they're getting that work ethic? Because
00:02:08.360 I would love to learn and make sure that
00:02:09.960 I'm instilling that in my kids,
00:02:11.001 [laughter] too.
00:02:11.520 >> So similar to being a CEO, everything
00:02:14.080 you do in front of your children, you're
00:02:16.120 modeling.
00:02:17.440 They're watching, they want to know what
00:02:19.440 you're doing, they're even if you think
00:02:21.240 they're not watching, they are. And the
00:02:22.560 same thing in in business, when you're a
00:02:24.040 CEO of a big company, people are
00:02:26.040 watching what you're doing, how you're
00:02:27.720 speaking, and um so I I just think the
00:02:30.440 the practice of understanding that uh
00:02:33.440 your children are not just going to do
00:02:35.360 what you say, but they're going to do
00:02:36.920 what you do.
00:02:38.440 And that's just something that I I think
00:02:41.480 is really important as as as I parent.
00:02:44.200 Um
00:02:44.800 Yeah, so what when your kids uh might
00:02:47.360 pop in a Zoom uh
00:02:48.991 >> [clears throat]
00:02:49.000 >> call or or whatnot, I think that's
00:02:51.320 great. I think people should smile about
00:02:53.080 that versus uh um not being happy about
00:02:56.080 that.
00:02:56.600 >> I mean, in the end, we're dealing with
00:02:57.720 people. Life happens, you're going to
00:02:59.200 have your kid pop in there, so I I 100%
00:03:01.080 agree. But backtracking to when you were
00:03:03.760 working over the summers, that's
00:03:05.320 obviously within the logistics space.
00:03:07.680 Was there something that when you were
00:03:10.120 doing that, you knew you wanted to go
00:03:11.720 into logistics, or you knew 100% that
00:03:14.120 you wanted to be an entrepreneur? Was
00:03:15.680 there any kind of aha moment doing that?
00:03:17.600 >> So no one wakes up and says I want to be
00:03:19.400 in logistics, [laughter] but just like
00:03:20.800 we teach, you know, our kids and model,
00:03:23.040 you have to be problem solvers. And when
00:03:25.600 you think about logistics, it's all
00:03:27.680 about solving problems. It's all about
00:03:30.519 solving problems faster, decreasing
00:03:32.160 latency, coming up with viable
00:03:33.720 solutions.
00:03:35.440 Um
00:03:36.200 So
00:03:38.320 >> Yeah.
00:03:39.840 And was there
00:03:42.200 the interesting dynamic of working with
00:03:44.400 your dad? So I had the the pleasure of
00:03:46.239 doing that, my father owns an an
00:03:47.720 architecture firm, and I was doing
00:03:48.959 similar things, just trying to help
00:03:50.800 clerical, or whatever it was, when I was
00:03:52.480 growing up. Did you like that dynamic of
00:03:54.920 working together?
00:03:56.600 >> So, I was This was back in the day
00:03:58.720 before there was Waze, before Google
00:04:00.560 Maps. So, there was only MapQuest. And
00:04:03.720 so, you'd have to print out MapQuest,
00:04:05.960 and I'd be driving around the inner city
00:04:07.560 of Chicago. And when you I'd get lost,
00:04:11.160 I'd have to call my dad.
00:04:13.200 >> Yeah.
00:04:13.720 >> And so, not only did I fail the mission
00:04:16.720 not going from point A to point B, I'd
00:04:19.120 have to And in some cases, you know, I
00:04:21.440 didn't have a cell phone at the time.
00:04:23.160 So, I'd have to get out of the car and
00:04:25.120 go into gas station and ask people and
00:04:27.480 problem-solve. And sometimes I'd have to
00:04:30.120 call my dad
00:04:31.360 and whip out the Rand McNally.
00:04:33.120 >> Well, that's something we all share in
00:04:34.040 commonality as well. I worked for my
00:04:35.480 dad. It was a linen company. So, if you
00:04:37.560 go to a nice restaurant, the chef coats,
00:04:39.080 the chef hats.
00:04:40.320 Uh it was founded in 1926. And so, my
00:04:43.120 job as a 13-year-old was to go wash the
00:04:44.680 trucks on the weekends. So, you imagine
00:04:46.400 like a UPS-sized truck. So, I'm from
00:04:48.280 Tacoma, Washington. So, it didn't matter
00:04:49.640 if it snowed, it rained, whatever it
00:04:51.560 was, I had to wash the trucks. And I
00:04:53.120 think they paid me $55 a week.
00:04:56.063 >> [laughter]
00:04:56.718 [clears throat]
00:04:56.720 >> Hey, at least you're still earning some
00:04:58.160 income.
00:04:58.400 >> asked the question about working for
00:04:59.680 your father. Maybe not my favorite
00:05:01.400 thing, cuz I felt like most of my life I
00:05:03.080 was his employee. He had four sons, so
00:05:05.919 um but definitely taught me you know,
00:05:07.120 taught me hard work.
00:05:08.160 >> Yeah. Yeah. Um I It's a similar thing
00:05:11.440 with me. It's like I think that the
00:05:13.280 experience is so phenomenal. I love my
00:05:15.360 dad to death. Him and I see things very
00:05:17.520 differently. And I by no means have the
00:05:19.800 the entrepreneurial spirit like you, but
00:05:21.280 I was always telling him like, "You
00:05:22.640 should be able to do this or do this a
00:05:24.120 little bit differently." So, I always
00:05:25.320 like to see what or I guess how that
00:05:28.000 dynamic works.
00:05:29.520 >> Now, in terms of dads, the biggest gift
00:05:32.000 that he gave me was not teaching me how
00:05:34.480 to work or letting me work for him. It
00:05:36.720 was not allowing me to work for him
00:05:38.880 after college.
00:05:40.520 And I wanted to. I thought I could make
00:05:42.320 his business so much better, and and we
00:05:44.680 could grow it. And he said, "You need to
00:05:46.919 go do your own thing. We don't believe
00:05:48.920 in nepotism in this family and go out
00:05:51.920 and make your own way." And so, at 22,
00:05:55.880 uh I had to figure it out myself.
00:05:57.800 >> I love that. And we I definitely want to
00:05:59.360 touch on that here in a second, but if
00:06:01.200 we're taking one step back, so worked
00:06:03.360 with your dad, understanding the
00:06:04.840 logistics space, driving a truck,
00:06:07.400 you decided on CU Boulder. Why did you
00:06:09.960 decide to come to school out here? Why
00:06:11.880 philosophy? Like what made you kind of
00:06:14.040 venture out?
00:06:15.480 >> Uh so,
00:06:16.920 uh
00:06:18.360 >> Were there other schools that you were
00:06:19.520 looking at besides Boulder?
00:06:21.160 >> Yes, uh my mother is still not happy
00:06:23.480 with me that I got [laughter] into many
00:06:25.280 other schools that uh might have had a
00:06:27.600 better reputation from an academic
00:06:29.680 institution uh perspective, but I wanted
00:06:32.320 to go to Boulder. I love the mountains.
00:06:34.280 I thought it'd be a great lifestyle, 300
00:06:36.200 days years of uh days of sun, and uh
00:06:40.880 that's that that was where I made the
00:06:42.400 decision. Now, why did I study
00:06:43.600 philosophy? I wanted to read, I wanted
00:06:45.680 to write, I wanted to learn about
00:06:47.720 systems, and at the time it was it was
00:06:49.760 called social policy and values, so I
00:06:51.560 was really interested in how do we make
00:06:53.760 the world a better place? Now, I didn't
00:06:55.480 know later on that making the world a
00:06:57.720 better place through logistics was
00:06:59.520 possible,
00:07:00.240 >> Yeah.
00:07:00.640 >> but I do think that the the operators
00:07:03.600 that have stayed in this industry the
00:07:05.160 longest fundamentally believe that we
00:07:07.880 are helping to make the world just a a
00:07:09.919 little better by whether it's technology
00:07:12.480 or a service or um
00:07:14.680 by bringing on great great teams.
00:07:16.919 >> Was there any type of like a specific
00:07:18.440 professor that said something profound
00:07:20.440 to you that made you change away from
00:07:22.200 philosophy and go back to business or or
00:07:24.680 is there like a theme that or there's
00:07:26.040 something you learned there that is
00:07:27.240 still sticks with you to this day?
00:07:28.560 >> So, the the theme that sticks with me
00:07:30.600 was I know that I don't know. It was the
00:07:33.720 greatest paradox it was it was a
00:07:35.720 Socratic uh Socrates used to say it,
00:07:38.240 which was I know that I don't know. And
00:07:40.919 we
00:07:41.125 >> [clears throat]
00:07:41.200 >> when we think about business, we're
00:07:43.080 testing ideas and concepts that we think
00:07:46.040 we know, but we need to actually test
00:07:48.280 them in the laboratory and see if
00:07:49.640 they're they're actually create ROI. So,
00:07:52.480 um I think that's what stuck with me.
00:07:55.000 Um why did I go into business? Well,
00:07:57.720 very hard to make money as a modern day
00:07:59.560 philosopher.
00:08:01.120 Uh I tried to when I was 22, I spent
00:08:03.480 some time overseas in China.
00:08:06.000 Uh and then when I got back to the
00:08:07.360 United States, uh
00:08:09.280 uh it was either uh philosophy, which
00:08:11.400 was not easy to generate income, or go
00:08:14.200 into the wide world of logistics. So, uh
00:08:16.720 was fortunate to get my first start at a
00:08:19.440 company called AFN,
00:08:21.440 uh and that's where I learned the
00:08:22.440 industry.
00:08:23.640 >> Interesting. And definitely want to
00:08:24.880 learn about AFN, too. But I didn't
00:08:26.160 actually know that you had the
00:08:26.880 opportunity to go abroad and go over to
00:08:28.680 China after school. What were you doing
00:08:30.560 there?
00:08:31.200 >> I'm not at liberty to say.
00:08:32.870 >> [laughter]
00:08:34.080 >> Yeah, I was in China is a is definitely
00:08:35.960 crazy place. So, AFN, how did you then
00:08:38.919 end up in AFN? And then again, going
00:08:40.599 back to what you're saying before,
00:08:41.799 couldn't work with your dad. Like, what
00:08:43.640 made you really want to get into the
00:08:45.080 logistics space? Or did it just fall
00:08:46.960 into your lap?
00:08:47.600 >> interject a quick question? Like, how
00:08:49.080 did you apply online? Or like, how did
00:08:51.320 you get Did you look at other brokerages
00:08:53.480 or other types of companies?
00:08:54.640 >> So, this is interesting. So, I remember
00:08:56.440 being 22 years old, I came I 20 I came
00:08:59.360 back from China, and I got on
00:09:01.480 CareerBuilder.
00:09:02.440 >> Yeah.
00:09:03.520 >> And no one emailed me back.
00:09:06.520 I didn't get any emails. And I didn't
00:09:09.240 know what to do.
00:09:10.520 And so, I I'd heard that there was this
00:09:12.839 thing called freight brokerage, and
00:09:14.280 there was this legend called Paul Loeb.
00:09:16.800 And Paul Loeb lived in uh a town uh just
00:09:19.800 north of of Chicago, and I happened to
00:09:22.520 grow up in that town. And so, I'd heard
00:09:24.280 about logistics. And Paul not just
00:09:27.880 created American Backhaulers, and really
00:09:29.880 is the godfather of modern day
00:09:32.680 uh freight brokerage, but he spawned
00:09:35.200 this ecosystem in the northern suburbs
00:09:38.360 of Chicago that created I'd say 20 plus
00:09:42.440 CEOs of top 200 3PLs. So, it was it was
00:09:48.280 sort of by default
00:09:49.960 maybe by where I lived that I just
00:09:51.840 gravitated towards logistics, walked on
00:09:54.360 the floor at AFN, and
00:09:57.440 2 days later had a role.
00:09:59.080 >> I love it. We were talking about this
00:10:00.720 earlier in terms and we love asking
00:10:03.240 everybody that question how you get into
00:10:04.960 logistics because I feel like it's one
00:10:06.320 of those industries you don't expect to
00:10:08.360 get into and then it kind of just keeps
00:10:09.720 you here forever where I was at DePaul
00:10:12.320 going to school and I was just working
00:10:14.040 out with a guy. He's like, "What are you
00:10:15.440 doing after school?" I'm like,
00:10:16.720 "I have no idea at this point." He ended
00:10:18.760 up getting a job at C.H. Robinson and he
00:10:20.680 said you should apply, applied, went
00:10:22.880 through a couple interviews, and then
00:10:23.960 literally just the first job that I
00:10:25.280 applied to found myself starting there
00:10:27.280 in a very similar type of situation.
00:10:29.720 >> Yeah, I got it. I played for
00:10:31.040 GlobalTrans. So, I was flipping homes
00:10:32.640 and it was like the end of '06 early
00:10:34.120 '07. And my dad's like, "I think you
00:10:36.480 need to figure out something else to
00:10:38.080 do."
00:10:38.632 >> [laughter]
00:10:39.200 >> Um and I'm not sure if you're
00:10:40.080 capitalized enough to keep going you
00:10:41.680 know as long as you want to go. And for
00:10:43.400 me I just applied online, Mike Little
00:10:45.120 called [clears throat] me. Um he didn't
00:10:46.440 like me for his role, Andrew liked me
00:10:48.839 for his role, hired me, and I've been in
00:10:51.040 logistics ever since.
00:10:52.160 >> Yeah. And so when you started with AFN,
00:10:54.560 what were you doing there?
00:10:55.920 >> I was a carrier sales rep. So, actually
00:10:58.040 this was interesting. I was not a
00:11:00.080 carrier sales rep. I wasn't even allowed
00:11:01.720 to make outbound calls. I was a phone
00:11:04.160 answer. So, I went to 4 years of school,
00:11:06.240 I read all this philosophy, I thought I
00:11:08.320 had a high IQ, and I'm sitting there
00:11:10.800 answering phone calls
00:11:13.280 and dispatching drivers.
00:11:16.040 So, I'm sitting there and this is like
00:11:17.720 my fourth day
00:11:19.440 and I'm talk- talking a hundred drivers
00:11:21.400 a day and I'm dispatching them and
00:11:23.040 remember from my MapQuest days I'm not
00:11:24.839 really that good at directions.
00:11:25.792 [laughter]
00:11:26.760 So,
00:11:27.920 I figured that I had to get out of of
00:11:30.200 dispatch as fast as possible.
00:11:32.440 >> Yeah.
00:11:33.000 >> And so I was sitting at the time next to
00:11:35.360 this guy named Mark Robbins who still
00:11:37.200 he's a 2,000 load book
00:11:40.120 a month rapid global trans still is
00:11:41.880 fantastic a brilliant carrier up.
00:11:44.360 >> Yeah.
00:11:44.720 >> And I sat next to him. And I just
00:11:47.000 watched everything he did. And then
00:11:48.880 behind me I had Mike Hammel who is is at
00:11:51.760 Highway now. He was tremendous leader
00:11:54.400 and manager
00:11:55.920 who who helped me navigate through my
00:11:57.600 first couple of months. And they built a
00:12:00.080 great ecosystem at AFN. Mike Nervick and
00:12:03.880 and Ryan Dobby who's no longer here.
00:12:06.320 They taught a lot of people. They made a
00:12:08.880 lot of people better.
00:12:11.000 And you know they sort of took what Paul
00:12:12.960 Loeb did and created a another
00:12:15.200 generation of freight operators.
00:12:17.680 >> Yeah. I think that that is one of the
00:12:19.720 things that separates a lot of the the
00:12:21.720 people in our space is are the ones that
00:12:23.920 take it upon themselves to either A find
00:12:26.280 mentors in the space to really learn
00:12:27.760 from but also just take it upon yourself
00:12:29.440 to do the job. It was a very similar
00:12:31.840 experience at least for my end where you
00:12:34.120 know for your degree and went in and
00:12:36.160 then I was doing something very similar.
00:12:37.600 I was an order taker filling out sheets
00:12:39.520 online and and just making sure that
00:12:41.200 things were moving seamlessly but I was
00:12:43.440 like how can I continue and actually
00:12:45.280 further progress my career?
00:12:47.560 So actually funny enough there's one of
00:12:49.839 my former mentors from Robinson is here.
00:12:52.440 His son just got accepted to Boulder so
00:12:53.760 I'm going to go meet up with him a
00:12:54.600 little bit later. I get to catch up with
00:12:56.360 him. But also it's just about me then
00:12:59.560 sitting there and saying I need to go
00:13:01.240 out and actively make cold calls. I need
00:13:03.080 to start building a book of business
00:13:04.920 outside of one the normal time that I'm
00:13:06.960 supposed to be working and I feel like
00:13:08.480 that's tends to lead to success in the
00:13:10.400 space.
00:13:10.880 >> Are you talking about Ray Black?
00:13:11.960 >> Yeah, Ray Black well yeah. Yep. Yeah,
00:13:13.640 he's up here. Yeah.
00:13:14.640 >> So Coleman just it's it's the people
00:13:17.440 that understand and it sounds like you
00:13:19.040 had that moment no one's coming to save
00:13:22.080 you.
00:13:22.480 >> Yep.
00:13:23.320 >> You're sitting in that desk. You're 22
00:13:25.920 you're 44 you're me you're a CEO.
00:13:27.960 >> Yeah.
00:13:28.400 >> No one's coming to save you.
00:13:29.960 >> Yep.
00:13:30.360 >> You need to work and you need to
00:13:31.680 execute.
00:13:32.520 >> Yeah. That's and it's interesting that
00:13:34.480 you say that and especially being in our
00:13:36.160 seats now when we're talking people
00:13:37.520 through their careers,
00:13:39.080 I'd say that that's a a great thing to
00:13:41.240 reiterate to everybody because
00:13:43.640 traditionally, right, you can climb the
00:13:45.000 corporate ladder and do whatever it is,
00:13:46.760 but even then, you still have to go
00:13:48.400 above and beyond and make sure that
00:13:49.800 you're getting recognized, not
00:13:50.920 necessarily just staying in your silo,
00:13:52.840 right?
00:13:52.920 >> When we talk about careers, we talk
00:13:54.560 about parenting or managing in business,
00:13:57.280 teaching your team, teaching your kids
00:13:59.960 how to advocate for themselves.
00:14:01.680 >> Yeah.
00:14:02.240 >> That is the skill. Be relentless, but
00:14:04.440 how do we advocate for ourselves? You
00:14:06.600 could be the best operator, but you're
00:14:08.000 not if you're not advocating
00:14:10.040 to your your manager, it's really hard
00:14:12.360 to achieve upward mobility.
00:14:13.920 >> Yeah.
00:14:15.040 >> So,
00:14:15.440 >> Yeah.
00:14:15.640 >> So, at AFN, like how did you continue to
00:14:17.840 advocate for yourself or maybe become an
00:14:19.680 intrapreneur?
00:14:20.840 >> So,
00:14:22.560 great, I love the word intrapreneur
00:14:24.280 because I think that there's a lot of
00:14:26.560 talented people out there that have
00:14:28.920 built [clears throat] businesses inside
00:14:30.720 of businesses. Um
00:14:32.440 and that was my first taste. Uh it was
00:14:34.160 called the CCC, critical conversion,
00:14:36.880 uh concept, which was I believed at the
00:14:39.160 time that there was this opportunity to
00:14:41.440 convert
00:14:43.680 over-the-road freight to intermodal. And
00:14:45.839 this was before people were really doing
00:14:47.360 that. Uh and I had a wonderful manager
00:14:50.280 who, Mike Hamel, who said, "Go and build
00:14:52.400 a business plan and do that and start
00:14:54.240 booking intermodal loads." So, figuring
00:14:56.440 out at the time it was just mode
00:14:58.160 diversification.
00:14:59.839 Uh so,
00:15:00.920 how that can relate to today, it's just
00:15:03.040 figuring out different avenues of
00:15:04.640 revenue generation, um
00:15:07.360 challenging that, trying to understand,
00:15:09.200 you know, where you can add value to
00:15:11.200 your customers. In this case, it was
00:15:13.520 uh finding a more cost-efficient way to
00:15:16.520 ship their freight via intermodal.
00:15:19.280 >> So, did you build out that product for
00:15:20.880 AFN then?
00:15:21.320 >> So, I built out for AFN. It was small. I
00:15:25.120 actually
00:15:26.320 brought them the thesis that we needed
00:15:27.720 to buy an IMC. This is 2005. I'm 23 and
00:15:31.840 I said, "We have to buy an IMC."
00:15:33.920 >> Yeah.
00:15:34.360 >> That's the only way to be get get big in
00:15:36.160 intermodal. And a year later actually
00:15:38.920 Coyote did buy an IMC and they moved
00:15:41.480 that direction. We never did.
00:15:44.520 AFN was a tremendous company,
00:15:45.830 [clears throat] ended up exiting to
00:15:47.400 Global Tranz years later. Um but that
00:15:51.680 was my first taste of like how do you
00:15:53.240 build something inside of a company and
00:15:56.160 how do you go from zero intermodal loads
00:15:58.360 to making it a multi-million dollar
00:16:00.440 business unit?
00:16:01.640 >> Yeah.
00:16:02.560 So, you were at AFN for what was it,
00:16:04.360 five years?
00:16:05.040 >> I was there for 30 months.
00:16:07.920 I actually never would have left
00:16:10.400 but
00:16:13.440 businesses, as you know, commission
00:16:15.320 structures change in the logistics
00:16:17.120 sector. If you're a leader, you should
00:16:19.000 definitely think before you change
00:16:20.320 commission structures.
00:16:22.320 And it's just very easy as a as a young
00:16:25.520 operator, my commission changed and I
00:16:27.520 walked out the next day and had the
00:16:30.120 opportunity to start Load Delivered
00:16:31.720 Logistics with
00:16:33.560 my former camp counselor. So, I was 7
00:16:36.400 years old, I went to this camp and had a
00:16:39.240 a tremendous
00:16:40.680 counselor named John Micklon.
00:16:42.760 His family was an owner in the Chicago
00:16:44.880 Bulls and
00:16:47.520 we started the company in 2008 and that
00:16:50.720 was how Load Delivered launched.
00:16:53.200 >> Oh, go ahead, please.
00:16:53.920 >> going to say it is wild how if you cut
00:16:55.520 commissions or change commission
00:16:56.720 structures, there's an exodus. I sold
00:16:58.839 computers at IBM. They changed it five
00:17:01.000 times in two and a half years. Everybody
00:17:02.920 left.
00:17:03.839 >> Yeah.
00:17:04.000 >> And it's like, here's the new commission
00:17:05.000 plan, right? And it's like, you're going
00:17:06.560 to make more money. It's like, okay, I
00:17:07.680 have to sell twice as much to make a
00:17:09.000 little less than before.
00:17:10.240 >> Mhm.
00:17:10.680 >> I mean, they can spin it any way they
00:17:11.800 want but you're going to leave if you're
00:17:14.160 a salesperson.
00:17:15.119 >> Well, what do you what do you think
00:17:16.439 about commission plans in in freight,
00:17:18.839 right? Especially with AI. How do How
00:17:22.480 are our operators going to think about
00:17:24.359 commission reps versus AI reps in the
00:17:27.040 future?
00:17:27.760 >> Yeah.
00:17:28.439 >> Man, that's such a a loaded question. I
00:17:30.920 think it's going to change all the time.
00:17:32.720 I think that if you're looking at an AI
00:17:35.400 rep, I don't think that there's going to
00:17:36.680 be any commission that's associated with
00:17:38.240 it. Obviously, because it's not an
00:17:39.800 actual human being doing it. I don't
00:17:41.960 think that we're necessarily either at a
00:17:43.840 point now or in the future to where
00:17:46.400 something in AI is going to be
00:17:48.200 sophisticated enough to go through an
00:17:49.840 enterprise cell. I think that you're
00:17:51.320 always going to have to have somebody
00:17:52.600 associated with it. But to your point, I
00:17:55.520 wouldn't be surprised if it there is a
00:17:57.880 lesser of a commission because AI is
00:18:00.520 involved in some way, shape, or form.
00:18:02.640 So, theoretically, sales reps can go out
00:18:04.840 and do more with it and hopefully recoup
00:18:06.800 some of that money.
00:18:07.520 >> maybe contrarily, if a person could do
00:18:09.240 25 loads a day, but now they can do
00:18:11.680 1,200 loads a day, like maybe the
00:18:13.520 commission is through the roof. And the
00:18:15.280 AI's been able to help them get there.
00:18:16.880 >> Yeah. Yeah.
00:18:18.080 >> How How do you How do you approach it?
00:18:20.160 Or how do you think the brokerage part
00:18:21.360 of it
00:18:21.480 >> So, I think Tim Barton, for instance, as
00:18:23.680 a good example, building a company that
00:18:26.440 really is built for the customer
00:18:28.120 relationship person.
00:18:29.480 >> Yeah.
00:18:29.960 >> So, if you look at at the
00:18:33.000 freight brokerages in general, um and
00:18:35.240 Tim built freightquote.com, which was
00:18:37.000 tremendously successful, sold to CH
00:18:38.560 Robinson.
00:18:39.200 >> Yeah.
00:18:39.920 >> Uh you look at Paul Loeb, you look at
00:18:41.720 Jeff Silver. They all built these
00:18:43.920 big brokerages. Um and then
00:18:47.680 you look at uh
00:18:49.480 you look at the the model that actually
00:18:51.240 works today.
00:18:52.280 >> Mhm.
00:18:53.000 >> The most profitable brokerages right now
00:18:56.320 are cradle-to-grave.
00:18:58.080 >> Really?
00:18:58.800 >> You need to be able to operate on both
00:19:01.440 sides. And so, where I see technology
00:19:03.520 coming in is it's going to empower that
00:19:05.680 person with customer relationships
00:19:08.000 >> Mhm.
00:19:08.600 >> to book freight, operate freight
00:19:10.800 autonomously
00:19:12.440 versus they used to have to depend on a
00:19:14.520 carrier up on an operations rep on a
00:19:16.800 finance person. I think that will evolve
00:19:19.440 a little bit and I think, you know, some
00:19:21.000 of your clients are ahead of that curve.
00:19:23.240 Um
00:19:24.400 we'll probably see more of of that model
00:19:26.680 in the near future.
00:19:27.920 >> Interesting. I know that was and I'm
00:19:29.120 sure you experienced this at AFN as
00:19:30.600 well. That was one of the most
00:19:31.520 frustrating part of the jobs from a
00:19:33.200 buy-sell model is I land a bunch of
00:19:35.880 freight then I have to rely on other
00:19:37.200 people that might not necessarily care
00:19:39.520 as much as I do to uh make sure that
00:19:41.440 everything moves seamlessly. So, having
00:19:42.920 the control I 100% can see the value in
00:19:44.920 that.
00:19:46.218 >> [snorts]
00:19:46.280 >> I think that's interesting.
00:19:47.440 >> Yeah.
00:19:47.760 >> Cuz you look at maybe the last large one
00:19:49.280 was maybe Access America that sold to
00:19:50.840 Coyote and then they had some challenges
00:19:53.080 to be able to convert everybody over to
00:19:54.880 a buy-sell model.
00:19:55.880 >> Yeah.
00:19:56.920 Um
00:19:58.280 backtracking actually to when you
00:19:59.320 started Load Delivered. That was a super
00:20:01.000 interesting take when you were talking
00:20:02.280 about how you wanted to start it with
00:20:03.520 the the former camp counselor. What was
00:20:04.880 his name again?
00:20:05.760 >> Uh John Micklon.
00:20:06.880 >> John Micklon. How where did that come
00:20:08.680 from? Did you just leave one day at AFN
00:20:10.680 and said, I need to call this guy up or
00:20:12.360 or what was the thought process to
00:20:13.840 actually getting it started?
00:20:14.880 >> So, well
00:20:16.600 backing up actually, John was one of the
00:20:19.080 seed founders for D&D Express which was
00:20:21.480 started by Danny Zamos.
00:20:23.760 John sold that to Paul Loeb and that was
00:20:26.080 how Paul started uh Command
00:20:28.560 Transportation which later sold for $420
00:20:31.600 million to Echo Global.
00:20:33.600 >> Mhm.
00:20:34.040 >> Uh
00:20:34.640 and so, he'd had some experience uh
00:20:37.520 early on building uh and John and I just
00:20:40.080 thought we could build something better
00:20:41.960 and and bigger and uh with a little more
00:20:43.960 technology in it.
00:20:45.840 >> Did you take any investment to start the
00:20:47.160 business or was it bootstrapped?
00:20:48.560 >> Uh John was the money behind it uh but I
00:20:51.200 consider it was pretty bootstrapped. Uh
00:20:53.440 we we did not scale with institutional
00:20:56.040 capital.
00:20:57.200 Uh and at the time we were battling
00:20:59.040 institutional capital. So, when Warburg
00:21:00.920 Pincus started to uh build out Coyote,
00:21:04.480 you know, and we go back to that model
00:21:07.040 that was not a profitable model. If you
00:21:09.200 look at Coyote, they did not make money
00:21:12.040 with the exception of $90 million in
00:21:14.240 EBITDA the year they were able to exit
00:21:16.600 for $1.8 billion to UPS. So,
00:21:19.800 that model never produced a lot of
00:21:21.320 money, which is interesting because you
00:21:22.760 have the Coyote model
00:21:24.440 and then people from Coyote got sucked
00:21:26.480 into to Convoy or to Uber Freight or
00:21:28.920 other digital models, and now they're
00:21:30.600 getting sucked into these AI companies.
00:21:32.200 So, you have people that have never made
00:21:34.200 money in freight
00:21:35.520 >> Yeah.
00:21:35.760 >> that their careers have been subsidized
00:21:37.760 by three or four different companies,
00:21:39.920 private equity or VC, and these
00:21:41.920 companies have never materialized into
00:21:44.240 profitable entities.
00:21:46.200 Um so, it's just it's interesting to see
00:21:47.760 how the freight game has evolved. Um
00:21:50.600 that said, we're really early on in this
00:21:53.160 next cycle.
00:21:54.440 >> Yeah. And we work with founders all the
00:21:56.760 time.
00:21:57.640 You're obviously [clears throat] a
00:21:58.280 multiple-time founder. What was the
00:22:00.320 first day like of just getting Load
00:22:02.640 Delivered started?
00:22:04.360 >> The silence is the most [laughter]
00:22:07.280 interesting part of a startup. And no
00:22:09.040 one talks about this.
00:22:11.040 You're You don't have any inbound
00:22:12.840 emails.
00:22:14.120 And so, just think about we all are are
00:22:15.840 in the business and we have these Slacks
00:22:17.640 coming in and emails coming in and phone
00:22:19.760 calls.
00:22:21.080 No one calls you.
00:22:22.240 >> Yeah.
00:22:22.520 >> No one emails you. And And so, that's
00:22:24.040 always interesting and a lonely moment.
00:22:26.560 But, that's when you That's part of the
00:22:29.560 the embracing is that lonely moment. I
00:22:31.600 call it the the sadness, uh the
00:22:33.560 loneliness that nobody notices.
00:22:35.920 Uh
00:22:36.720 And that's when entrepreneurs really
00:22:38.600 start to innovate.
00:22:39.960 >> Yeah.
00:22:40.920 >> I find at least.
00:22:42.120 >> Yeah.
00:22:43.080 And I would say that arguably probably
00:22:45.520 one of the worst times to start a
00:22:47.160 business, at least before 2009, just
00:22:49.400 with everything that was going on in the
00:22:50.680 economy. But, you obviously found a
00:22:52.640 large amount of success
00:22:54.760 really since you started it, especially
00:22:56.120 over that four-year period, give or
00:22:57.960 take. What was that like?
00:22:59.800 >> So, when When started, it was actually
00:23:01.080 Bear Stearns that just
00:23:03.560 uh you know, basically collapsed. The
00:23:04.880 economy was in disarray.
00:23:06.560 >> Yeah.
00:23:08.480 >> And the It's easier now because, you
00:23:11.160 know, I was young. I didn't have any
00:23:13.160 money. I didn't have a family. I wasn't
00:23:15.480 as knowledgeable about macroeconomics
00:23:17.520 situation and uh
00:23:20.360 we turned off the the
00:23:23.120 any news. There was no news allowed in
00:23:25.880 our office.
00:23:26.680 >> Wow.
00:23:27.040 >> Because it was so negative and energy
00:23:29.320 that was going on in 2008, I said if we
00:23:31.880 want to win, we need to turn off the
00:23:33.240 news and we need to focus internally. We
00:23:35.400 can only control
00:23:37.560 what goes on in this office. And we are
00:23:40.320 in an industry where uh there's a lot of
00:23:43.360 uh activity and motion. There's trucks.
00:23:46.360 Uh
00:23:47.120 we need to focus internally and that's
00:23:51.160 what we did for literally the next 11
00:23:53.120 years.
00:23:53.920 >> The first four or five years though, I
00:23:55.160 mean, it really worked turning the news
00:23:56.560 off cuz I think what was your growth
00:23:57.880 like? Over 975% or something?
00:24:00.040 >> We were in Inc. 500, which is really
00:24:01.720 exciting. Uh we were uh 11th
00:24:03.880 fastest-growing company in Chicago. Um
00:24:06.640 so, we hit that ex- sort of accelerator
00:24:09.360 button.
00:24:10.520 Uh I think it was partially good timing,
00:24:12.640 partially a fantastic team.
00:24:14.840 >> Yeah.
00:24:15.080 >> Um
00:24:16.200 and then a lot of it was just great
00:24:18.080 customer support. And we we focused on
00:24:21.040 customers. And I know that's the ethos
00:24:22.840 of of Talent Solvers, but it's all about
00:24:25.280 the customers. And I think especially
00:24:27.720 specifically in brokerage, if you can
00:24:29.080 really lean into the customer service in
00:24:31.240 that 2008 to 2012 time frame, it was a
00:24:34.480 lot easier to grow
00:24:36.280 uh
00:24:36.840 versus today when you think about
00:24:38.560 scaling, there's just a lot of different
00:24:40.880 variables that go into the ability to
00:24:43.160 scale and scale profitably.
00:24:45.560 >> So, growing that much in your late 20s,
00:24:48.520 did ego ever come into Do you have to
00:24:50.640 check your ego at the door? I mean, it
00:24:52.240 must have been pretty empowering.
00:24:54.000 >> So,
00:24:55.520 I had a lot of I had a great team, and
00:24:58.080 if you have a great team, they'll check
00:24:59.880 your ego.
00:25:00.622 >> [laughter]
00:25:01.360 >> Uh and so I think that's important,
00:25:03.000 surrounding yourself with mentors
00:25:05.840 uh that and advisors, I think is
00:25:07.720 critical. And also recognizing, you
00:25:10.720 know, going back to that philosophy, is
00:25:13.120 I know that I don't know. And so I think
00:25:15.640 that if you constantly are trying to
00:25:17.360 learn and grow,
00:25:19.040 um
00:25:19.920 you don't get sort of
00:25:22.840 pulled into uh you know, thinking that
00:25:25.160 you're you're bigger than you are.
00:25:26.560 >> Yeah. Was there ever a point in time of
00:25:29.040 running Load Deliver over those 10 years
00:25:30.680 where you ever
00:25:31.960 I might go out of business tomorrow.
00:25:33.440 >> Twice.
00:25:34.520 >> Really?
00:25:35.200 >> There was two times where essentially a
00:25:37.400 lot of brokerages run negative working
00:25:39.040 capital businesses, so
00:25:41.160 uh it's dollar in, dollar out. And when
00:25:43.320 you scale too fast and the market flips,
00:25:46.320 very hard to recover from that. So your
00:25:48.160 debt-to-equity ratio flips, the bank uh
00:25:51.040 typically are not very excited um
00:25:53.920 when you're in that situation. So there
00:25:55.880 was two times, you know,
00:25:57.640 we were a big company and you know, you
00:25:59.680 have to pay yourself zero. Um you have
00:26:01.600 to figure out how to um operate
00:26:03.760 differently, and and that's what
00:26:05.360 prepared me for this evolution. Um
00:26:08.600 you know, I had to go from 184 people
00:26:12.320 to 77.
00:26:14.160 And people don't hear about that in Inc.
00:26:16.480 magazine or in Crain's, but we had to
00:26:18.920 systematically create operational
00:26:20.960 leverage in our business because the
00:26:23.480 market compressed. And so when I talked
00:26:25.720 to operators over the past couple years,
00:26:27.600 I I understood the pain they're going
00:26:29.160 through.
00:26:30.360 Uh a lot are still in that sort of right
00:26:33.000 now in this in this market, but
00:26:34.840 hopefully in the next couple months
00:26:36.200 they'll be able to work themselves out.
00:26:38.960 >> I think that's one of the important
00:26:40.160 things to understand from an
00:26:41.360 entrepreneurial journey is that
00:26:43.080 everybody always talks about the good,
00:26:44.960 right? Yeah, exactly, making the Inc.
00:26:46.680 500 and all that. But there are
00:26:48.480 inevitably down times again when you're
00:26:50.560 having to scale or drop head count by
00:26:52.480 50%
00:26:54.120 um
00:26:54.960 but I think all of everything that you
00:26:56.440 were just talking about and especially
00:26:58.160 when the economy was rough talking about
00:27:00.360 how we can control what's in our four
00:27:02.000 walls that speaks a lot to the culture
00:27:04.400 that you had built there and again
00:27:06.760 making sure that as you're reducing head
00:27:08.680 count you're still keeping people on
00:27:10.160 board and they're still motivated.
00:27:12.800 Describe the kind of the importance of
00:27:14.400 the culture that you built there in
00:27:16.200 terms of getting to the success that you
00:27:17.960 wanted um and just kind of how you did
00:27:20.120 that.
00:27:22.560 >> That's uh
00:27:25.640 I'm not sure. I'd have to think about
00:27:27.240 that. [laughter] That's
00:27:28.000 >> there's one cool thing you did from a
00:27:29.240 culture perspective that I learned when
00:27:30.720 I first met you was that maybe on I'm
00:27:33.520 not sure if it was once a month or every
00:27:35.480 other Friday you'd have somebody come in
00:27:37.560 and maybe do nails for the ladies that
00:27:38.880 worked in the office.
00:27:40.480 >> Uh
00:27:41.120 so
00:27:41.960 >> I remember it.
00:27:43.000 >> That that was definitely [laughter]
00:27:45.120 So here was the best advice I got from a
00:27:47.480 leader who was a CFO of of five publicly
00:27:49.920 traded companies. He was the one that He
00:27:52.720 said he he's like you are going to need
00:27:54.840 to change your business model and you
00:27:57.120 could either take a hatchet
00:27:59.640 or you could take an axe.
00:28:01.760 And I'll help you do either but we're
00:28:04.240 going to have to change the dynamics of
00:28:05.880 this business. And um so during that
00:28:09.280 time when we had to decrease the amount
00:28:11.560 of people he said the people on your
00:28:13.880 team you need to continue to take care
00:28:15.880 of. You need to make sure they're paid
00:28:18.160 well. You need to make sure that
00:28:19.840 everything that you were giving them
00:28:21.280 prior to um doing some layoffs that you
00:28:23.960 can continue that. And so what we did is
00:28:26.280 we we rallied around the the best people
00:28:29.480 at the company they stepped up and in
00:28:31.560 2018 uh a lot of those leaders ended up
00:28:34.640 doing really well upon the exit.
00:28:36.640 >> Yeah.
00:28:37.040 >> Good for you. That's good advice from
00:28:38.320 your mentor.
00:28:39.080 >> Yeah. And can you elaborate on what the
00:28:42.240 difference between an axe and a hatchet
00:28:43.800 is? I'm assuming hatchet just a little
00:28:45.600 bit slower in terms of how you're
00:28:46.920 changing the business versus axe. You're
00:28:48.560 just going in and changing everything
00:28:49.880 right off the bat.
00:28:50.800 >> Yeah, so most first-time founders will
00:28:52.560 always choose the hatchet when given the
00:28:54.459 >> [laughter]
00:28:54.560 >> opportunity.
00:28:56.160 I chose the hatchet.
00:28:57.400 >> Yeah.
00:28:58.720 >> Which is was a great experience. The The
00:29:01.160 axe would be to make big decisions
00:29:03.520 quickly.
00:29:04.120 >> Mhm.
00:29:04.760 >> And move swift.
00:29:06.440 Everyone's always
00:29:07.720 careful about culture and optics and
00:29:09.960 what people think. No one cares.
00:29:12.600 >> Yeah.
00:29:13.480 >> What's important is that you have if you
00:29:16.040 have if you have fiduciary
00:29:17.560 responsibility, you are making sure that
00:29:19.400 you take care of your investors and your
00:29:21.080 team.
00:29:21.600 >> Mhm.
00:29:22.280 >> And that was always really important to
00:29:25.000 me.
00:29:25.880 >> So I'm assuming your stance changed now.
00:29:27.680 If you were to having to do something
00:29:29.360 over again from that drastic, you're
00:29:31.320 taking the axe to it.
00:29:32.720 >> Absolutely.
00:29:33.800 >> Interesting.
00:29:35.000 So started Load Delivered, obviously
00:29:37.480 extremely successful, and then I believe
00:29:38.920 it was in 2013 started and founded a
00:29:41.320 company called Logistical Labs. Where
00:29:43.440 did that come from? What was the goal
00:29:45.960 behind it in working with both of them
00:29:47.760 in tandem?
00:29:48.880 >> So Logistical Labs was created because
00:29:52.160 we just could not compete with C.H.
00:29:54.080 Robinson and Coyote. I was looking I was
00:29:56.440 actually here at Whitewave Foods, Jake
00:29:58.120 Kilgore, really good guy
00:30:00.920 see him at the Denver Transportation
00:30:02.280 Club.
00:30:02.720 >> Yeah.
00:30:03.040 >> He we were at Whitewave in Broomfield,
00:30:05.360 Colorado, and he was talking about the
00:30:07.440 RFP.
00:30:08.240 >> Mhm.
00:30:08.840 >> And I recognized that we did not have
00:30:11.160 the capabilities to
00:30:14.080 take data and do quote effectively. And
00:30:16.920 so I spent the next year of my life
00:30:18.600 researching pricing and and how we could
00:30:21.240 price better,
00:30:23.000 existing systems that worked, and there
00:30:24.960 were no systems that were out there.
00:30:26.560 >> Mhm.
00:30:27.160 >> And so I went to Lithuania.
00:30:29.560 I took, you know, whatever I had in my
00:30:31.680 401k, it was a couple hundred thousand
00:30:33.240 dollars, went to Lithuania, and we
00:30:35.440 launched Logistical Labs. The first
00:30:37.440 customer was was Load Delivered, and it
00:30:39.360 was pricing and modal optimization. How
00:30:41.600 could we price more accurately with
00:30:44.520 using algorithms, big data, different
00:30:47.440 sources, bring that in and and push out
00:30:50.200 prices fast to Fortune 500. So, it
00:30:53.040 worked. And it worked so well that over
00:30:55.440 the next couple years, we had
00:30:57.440 billion-dollar companies, Werner, CRST,
00:31:00.440 US Xpress that embraced the technology
00:31:03.480 and started to use it to grow their
00:31:05.640 brokerages from small brokerages to
00:31:07.880 billion-dollar companies.
00:31:09.360 >> Was there any concern from those
00:31:11.120 customers that Load Delivered had some
00:31:13.760 of their data?
00:31:14.560 >> So,
00:31:15.560 it's
00:31:16.640 you know, I take a lot of pride in this
00:31:19.000 and you know, starting this AI company
00:31:20.880 when we think about data and the
00:31:22.400 importance of trust.
00:31:24.320 We had 68 customers' data that was all
00:31:28.240 in Logistical Labs. We never looked at
00:31:30.360 it once.
00:31:32.000 And the thesis was eventually I wanted
00:31:35.040 to build this exchange, wanted to build
00:31:36.800 this consortium, believed that this this
00:31:39.240 group of 65 companies could do better
00:31:42.080 together.
00:31:43.640 In 2018, we we sold the both companies,
00:31:46.440 Load Delivered and Logistical Labs
00:31:47.960 before we got to that vision. Um but
00:31:51.000 absolutely people were concerned about
00:31:53.080 sharing data. They thought I was crazy.
00:31:56.040 They said, "Wait, you think you could
00:31:58.960 help us price better, but you need us to
00:32:01.920 give you your data."
00:32:04.080 Fast forward 12, 13 years later,
00:32:06.640 it's very normal to exchange data so
00:32:08.800 that people can help you price or help
00:32:11.240 you find trucks. And so,
00:32:13.080 you know, breaking down some of those
00:32:14.320 barriers early on
00:32:16.360 was difficult. I remember getting a
00:32:17.720 cease and desist
00:32:19.360 from DAT, a cease and desist from
00:32:21.200 Truckstop cuz they never had anyone hit
00:32:24.240 their hit their system that many times
00:32:26.280 for rating.
00:32:27.320 >> Yeah.
00:32:27.480 >> And this is like before real APIs even
00:32:30.040 existed. And so,
00:32:32.280 they're like, "How could you potentially
00:32:33.720 hit it that many times?" And said, "We
00:32:36.160 We need the data to be able to help sub
00:32:38.680 billion dollar brokers price.
00:32:41.040 And yeah.
00:32:42.080 >> Man, I can't even imagine running one
00:32:44.560 company. I mean, kudos to obviously you
00:32:46.480 and then you for founding your own your
00:32:48.440 own companies, but what was that like
00:32:49.960 running two at the same time?
00:32:52.120 >> So, I had a amazing Chris Richardi who's
00:32:54.760 the the COO, president, chief product
00:32:57.200 officer. Now has a big role at Capstone.
00:32:59.880 He really ran that company
00:33:02.400 and took the the vision and executed. Um
00:33:05.760 so, I'll give him all that that credit,
00:33:07.560 him him and the team over there.
00:33:08.960 >> Yeah. Well, we'll still give you some of
00:33:10.440 the credit. That's for sure. Obviously
00:33:12.280 well deserved, but I think that goes
00:33:14.240 back to some of the things that we were
00:33:15.160 talking about and the importance of team
00:33:16.440 and building the right team.
00:33:17.773 >> [gasps]
00:33:18.040 >> So, Load Delivered, Logistical Labs,
00:33:21.120 both doing extremely well and then you
00:33:23.520 alluded to it already, but in 2018 went
00:33:26.200 through an acquisition. Were you
00:33:28.000 actively seeking something? Did
00:33:29.440 something come to you? What kind of
00:33:31.240 spurred that?
00:33:32.160 >> So, in 2015, you saw
00:33:35.560 Command Transportation and Coyote hit
00:33:37.600 the bid.
00:33:38.240 >> Yep.
00:33:39.080 >> So, 2014 was the hype cycle, really good
00:33:41.560 business, and [clears throat] you saw
00:33:43.160 those leaders had a lot of experience
00:33:45.440 and they knew it was time to sell.
00:33:48.320 So, having been brought [clears throat]
00:33:50.000 up in the Chicago freight brokerage
00:33:51.480 ecosystem, I think it's important to
00:33:53.680 respect and look at what your elders are
00:33:55.640 doing.
00:33:57.200 I saw what they did and when the the
00:34:00.400 market tanked in 2016,
00:34:03.000 I knew that as soon as the market sort
00:34:05.680 of changed, we needed to be in a
00:34:07.880 position to exit. And partially it was
00:34:10.480 because of the compression that was
00:34:11.960 coming in from Uber Freight, Convoy,
00:34:14.879 some of the digital brokerages. They
00:34:16.879 were playing with institutional capital
00:34:19.520 and they were basically buying market
00:34:21.719 share at negative margin. And so, I was
00:34:24.080 running a a profitable freight
00:34:25.879 brokerage. We were doing, you know,
00:34:27.320 eight or nine million in EBITDA and I
00:34:30.080 just saw that it
00:34:31.840 was always told uh
00:34:33.639 never be in a fight with someone that is
00:34:36.520 a little irrational, and I felt that we
00:34:39.199 were uh there was just an opportunity to
00:34:42.399 uh exit, move on, and and continue to
00:34:44.879 innovate elsewhere.
00:34:46.080 >> So, like finding an acquirer for your
00:34:49.040 business, is it almost like a sales
00:34:50.840 process like
00:34:52.600 obtaining like venture capital or like
00:34:54.639 how do you go about finding suitors?
00:34:56.520 >> So, the best companies don't get sold,
00:34:58.240 they get bought.
00:35:00.040 >> Interesting.
00:35:00.760 >> And I think that was a big, you know,
00:35:03.080 big part of of my evolution. Uh we had
00:35:06.720 gone to market in 2014 or 2015
00:35:10.080 uh and just when you go and try to sell
00:35:13.000 a company, it doesn't work.
00:35:14.520 >> Interesting.
00:35:14.760 >> You need to build a great organization,
00:35:17.880 something that will last, something that
00:35:19.520 will live uh you know, for many years
00:35:22.240 beyond. Uh that was actually something I
00:35:24.720 learned from from mentors early on. It
00:35:26.640 was not just how good of a company you
00:35:28.760 can build,
00:35:29.680 >> but how many years after you leave will
00:35:32.200 it be around?
00:35:34.280 Interesting.
00:35:34.840 >> And you know, I think you know,
00:35:36.960 there's talk about legacy. I don't
00:35:38.480 really necessarily believe in legacy,
00:35:40.000 but I believe in whatever you do, it
00:35:42.320 should have a lasting positive impact.
00:35:44.560 >> Yeah.
00:35:45.000 >> And um so,
00:35:47.480 yeah.
00:35:47.920 >> I mean, fast forward today, I think I
00:35:49.280 saw a picture on LinkedIn where you had
00:35:50.680 a party with your former Load Delivered
00:35:52.240 teammates.
00:35:52.920 >> It's uh I have a big place in my heart
00:35:55.600 for for Load Delivered, for the team out
00:35:57.800 there, and uh yeah, it's it's the
00:36:00.840 relationships that you create in this
00:36:02.640 industry and in business in general are
00:36:04.880 are tremendous. Um I know, you know, KJ,
00:36:07.360 you have a lot of great industry
00:36:08.840 friends, and um
00:36:10.720 that's part of the fun.
00:36:12.080 >> It is fun. And I want to talk about af-
00:36:14.480 once that acquisition or the sell
00:36:16.400 actually happened, but I think that's
00:36:18.800 something else that's interesting from
00:36:20.040 an entrepreneurial standpoint. You were
00:36:21.440 talking about building a business and
00:36:22.880 something that is going to stay there
00:36:24.640 even when, you, you decide to depart,
00:36:26.400 whatever it is. Did you start Load
00:36:28.680 Delivered and then
00:36:30.120 potentially Logistical Labs with the
00:36:32.000 goal in mind of I know I'm going to sell
00:36:33.720 this one day, or were you going into it
00:36:35.800 as I'm just going to build a business
00:36:37.160 and then see what happens?
00:36:38.280 >> to be a billion-dollar company. I wanted
00:36:40.240 to be a top 10 freight broker. I was
00:36:42.440 convinced in my early 20s that was going
00:36:44.840 to happen. Um but I think it was also
00:36:47.800 important to, you know, recognize your
00:36:50.520 strengths, recognize where you need to
00:36:52.960 grow as an individual. Um I wanted to be
00:36:56.360 a CEO of a billion-dollar company, and I
00:36:58.920 thought the best way would be to sell
00:37:00.520 into that company.
00:37:02.000 >> Mhm.
00:37:02.440 >> Um the CEO of Capstone is tremendous. Uh
00:37:05.960 I ended up selling the company to HIG
00:37:07.720 Capital uh year after he bought Load
00:37:10.080 Delivered. Um so Capstone's doing great,
00:37:12.800 but uh that was part of it is I wanted
00:37:15.400 to learn what it was like to be an
00:37:17.280 executive at a billion-dollar company
00:37:19.760 versus a founder at a hundred-plus
00:37:21.800 million-dollar company.
00:37:23.160 >> Yeah.
00:37:24.080 Then
00:37:25.200 with that in mind, when this all
00:37:27.840 actually happened, then you got into
00:37:29.120 venture capital, correct?
00:37:30.800 >> So
00:37:31.880 as most founders do, you sell your
00:37:33.600 company, you've worked so hard, and
00:37:35.320 you're trying to figure out exactly what
00:37:37.000 the next steps were.
00:37:38.800 Uh and so investing and being an angel
00:37:41.120 investor in the sector was just a very
00:37:43.600 logical progression.
00:37:45.840 Uh and yeah, over the course of uh 7
00:37:49.240 years, we've invested in now eight uh
00:37:52.040 freight tech 25 companies, one IPO,
00:37:56.000 uh three unicorns, and uh hopefully uh
00:37:59.160 more in the near future.
00:38:00.920 >> And post-sale, you also kind of came
00:38:03.000 full circle and moved back to Colorado.
00:38:05.520 >> Yeah, I spent a lot of time in front of
00:38:07.120 the computer screen uh for for 11 years
00:38:10.000 building Load Delivered. Uh
00:38:12.200 you know, when you love your business,
00:38:14.480 you love what you do, you you can be a
00:38:16.200 little obsessive-compulsive about it.
00:38:18.280 And I thought it was important to go
00:38:20.080 from, you know, 14-15 hours a day in
00:38:21.880 front of a computer screen to get back
00:38:23.760 to my roots. Uh Um I always wanted to
00:38:25.680 build a family
00:38:27.000 in Colorado. When I graduated at CU,
00:38:29.720 there was no job opportunity. Had to
00:38:31.600 move back to Chicago. And so, uh as soon
00:38:34.480 as I had the opportunity uh to move back
00:38:36.480 here, I did. And uh
00:38:39.400 yeah, I try to spend a lot of time
00:38:41.520 outdoors and and in the nature.
00:38:43.520 >> Yeah, so that was that post 18 and going
00:38:45.480 into 19?
00:38:46.560 >> Uh so, that was I I was at Capstone for
00:38:48.840 uh 12 months and 1 day after the exit.
00:38:51.320 Uh I thought it was very important to
00:38:52.960 transition my leadership team. I wanted
00:38:55.720 all them to have a really strong role at
00:38:57.480 the new entity. Um
00:38:59.520 and yeah, so that was about 2019 before
00:39:02.520 COVID. We moved out here.
00:39:04.760 Uh and uh that's when we started to uh
00:39:07.280 build out the the venture firm.
00:39:10.320 >> Having that experience and then going
00:39:11.640 into the venture firm, how did selling
00:39:13.920 your business and then being part of
00:39:15.680 that affect how you evaluated companies
00:39:18.800 when you're investing in them?
00:39:20.520 >> So, being an operator, you can afford to
00:39:23.320 be very emotional. Being an investor,
00:39:25.200 you cannot be emotional.
00:39:26.880 >> Hm.
00:39:27.080 >> I think that's the biggest difference.
00:39:29.000 Uh and that's what I learned.
00:39:30.880 Um you know, also, people don't talk
00:39:33.120 about all the the losers that they
00:39:35.057 >> [laughter]
00:39:35.440 >> the companies that maybe didn't do as
00:39:37.120 well. Uh and and the losses. And I think
00:39:39.800 that's also
00:39:41.760 it sounds cliché, but you do learn more
00:39:43.800 from the losses sometimes than the
00:39:45.720 winners.
00:39:46.960 Uh and that's that's part of life.
00:39:49.320 >> I'm going to say along the way as well,
00:39:50.520 like
00:39:51.480 getting into deep into COVID, you
00:39:52.960 started another transportation business
00:39:54.440 or you bought one.
00:39:55.480 >> So, I we uh so, I loved out being out in
00:39:58.800 the outdoors. And the thought was we
00:40:01.440 built a company called Romeo. And we
00:40:03.400 were building camper vans. And then we
00:40:05.640 were renting camper vans out. And we
00:40:08.200 were trying to create an experience for
00:40:10.200 people during COVID where they could go
00:40:12.200 to the mountains, rent a camper van,
00:40:14.680 uh and enjoy life.
00:40:17.120 What we found during that business was
00:40:20.160 building. So, there's building
00:40:22.080 technology and then there's building
00:40:23.320 vehicles.
00:40:24.800 Uh it was a tremendous experience
00:40:26.280 building the vehicles,
00:40:27.960 uh but what I realized I don't love
00:40:32.000 I I didn't love building hard assets. I
00:40:35.320 don't love owning hard assets unless
00:40:38.280 it's real estate. And so, what we
00:40:40.120 decided to do, we built 25 vehicles, we
00:40:42.600 sold all 25 vehicles,
00:40:44.880 and we started building uh buying
00:40:47.640 industrial real estate to build and
00:40:50.400 store the vehicles, and we recognized
00:40:52.920 that that business was going to be much
00:40:54.480 more profitable industrial outdoor
00:40:56.120 storage than the van business. So, we
00:40:59.400 shut the van business down. Now, we have
00:41:01.200 an industrial outdoor storage business,
00:41:03.400 uh large property, 10 acres in uh
00:41:06.320 Dacono, Colorado, and then 12 different
00:41:08.960 facilities across the country, uh
00:41:11.240 ranging from like Alabama up to uh to
00:41:14.080 Massachusetts.
00:41:15.080 >> So, if you like scroll your LinkedIn
00:41:16.640 profile, you can see Go Romeo on there.
00:41:18.800 For me, how I got exposed to it when I
00:41:20.520 ran Global Trade Acquisition or Project
00:41:22.160 44, it was a perk for the employees
00:41:24.160 during COVID.
00:41:25.480 People would like you could set up time,
00:41:27.800 right? You could say, "I want to go and
00:41:29.160 have it for like this week, and I'm
00:41:30.440 going to go to Wyoming and work remote."
00:41:32.480 So, it was a perk for at least a year at
00:41:33.840 Project 44. That's how I got exposed to
00:41:35.400 it.
00:41:36.200 >> That's and we had great feedback. Like
00:41:37.960 people loved renting those vehicles.
00:41:40.120 They were in front of computers all the
00:41:41.640 time, and then they'd get to go in a
00:41:43.120 Romeo and and roam all over the country,
00:41:45.560 and uh
00:41:46.760 you know, I think as as AI becomes more
00:41:48.680 prevalent, we're going to see more
00:41:50.360 people want to get outside, get
00:41:52.560 outdoors, have real experiences. I think
00:41:55.600 we're seeing that in the economy
00:41:56.800 already, where people
00:41:58.680 uh
00:41:59.360 they want to they want to embrace uh
00:42:01.920 embrace nature versus just being in
00:42:03.920 front of the computer.
00:42:04.760 >> Well, all three of us live in Colorado,
00:42:06.440 raising families in Colorado. I
00:42:08.440 completely agree.
00:42:09.280 >> Oh, yeah.
00:42:09.640 >> You were ahead of the game with that.
00:42:10.760 >> Yeah. I think that there's a lot of
00:42:12.640 people that are starting to experience
00:42:13.920 that and making sure that they're
00:42:16.080 getting more than just what's outside of
00:42:18.240 the four walls at work or something like
00:42:19.840 that. I made a very similar transition
00:42:21.760 to you where we were in Chicago up until
00:42:23.520 2019, moved out here at the same time
00:42:25.400 because we knew that we wanted to have a
00:42:28.000 little bit more of that outdoors
00:42:29.600 exposure. Absolutely love Chicago. I
00:42:31.880 personally think it's the best city in
00:42:32.960 the world that I've been to, but ready
00:42:35.520 for a little bit
00:42:37.640 extra curriculars outside of just
00:42:39.320 downtown.
00:42:40.600 So, it's it's important for that. Um I
00:42:42.760 did want to circle back really quick. I
00:42:44.080 mean, I guess you were still in venture
00:42:45.880 while you were doing Go Romeo. One of
00:42:48.320 the things that I think is super
00:42:49.360 interesting and if you had to pick
00:42:50.720 between the two, if you're investing in
00:42:52.840 a company, what's more important? Is it
00:42:55.360 the jockey or the horse? And again, what
00:42:57.640 I mean by that is is it the founder or
00:42:59.480 is it the idea behind that founder?
00:43:03.400 >> The the standard commentary
00:43:05.969 [clears throat] is it's all about the
00:43:07.000 founder.
00:43:07.720 >> Yeah.
00:43:08.760 And I do agree with that.
00:43:10.880 But there's a combination of founder
00:43:15.560 and the timing in the sector that
00:43:18.440 they're in.
00:43:19.560 >> Yeah.
00:43:20.480 >> And so a combination of founder and
00:43:24.080 timing and what they're working on and
00:43:26.480 what's what what's behind that? What is
00:43:28.840 going to help be like the impetus to
00:43:30.960 take that from a normal business to
00:43:33.440 something greater. [clears throat]
00:43:35.320 Highway's a great example. So, I was one
00:43:37.000 of the first checks into Highway,
00:43:39.680 wonderful company helping to fight
00:43:41.200 freight fraud in the logistics sector
00:43:44.120 and
00:43:45.560 it was So, one is investing in founders
00:43:47.920 that are trying to like build the
00:43:49.080 future, not build for today. I think
00:43:51.080 it's is really important. Highway was
00:43:53.560 one of those situations where he was
00:43:54.880 trying to to build for the future.
00:43:57.440 Um but what they had happen, not just a
00:43:59.880 great jockey, not just a great idea,
00:44:02.280 they had something happen during that.
00:44:05.240 There was a large There was more fraud
00:44:08.160 that started to occur in the industry
00:44:11.320 and the largest competitor
00:44:12.780 [clears throat]
00:44:13.320 had some technical difficulties.
00:44:16.120 And so they they had lightning
00:44:18.675 >> [clears throat]
00:44:18.720 >> and they were able to go from zero to
00:44:20.640 1250 customers and raise a really big
00:44:23.040 round from FTV and are doing fantastic.
00:44:26.320 And so I think it's a combination of the
00:44:28.320 jockey. I think the idea is important
00:44:30.680 but I think there has to be some sort of
00:44:33.080 tailwind behind uh behind it in in this
00:44:36.240 day and age.
00:44:37.600 >> That makes sense. And so
00:44:40.880 venture started Go Romeo and I think
00:44:44.320 that that brings us to what you're doing
00:44:46.080 today, right? You wanted to get back in
00:44:48.520 the game. What made you want to start
00:44:50.200 another company?
00:44:51.920 >> Yeah, I mean that's a great question
00:44:53.000 because I mean young children, two young
00:44:55.040 boys at the time. Is it that you you
00:44:57.280 couldn't pass up the opportunity how big
00:44:58.630 [clears throat] AI is going to be? It
00:44:59.840 was you wanted the action. It was
00:45:02.360 serving customers. It was helping
00:45:04.120 brokerages. I mean there's a lot of
00:45:05.720 stuff to think through to decide to get
00:45:06.840 into an arms race really.
00:45:09.520 >> Yeah, I you know the
00:45:13.480 when you're when you
00:45:15.640 are an entrepreneur, you get pulled. You
00:45:18.320 have this pull
00:45:20.040 and it's not logical.
00:45:22.800 It doesn't always feel great but
00:45:25.000 something is just telling you that you
00:45:26.520 have to get in the game and innovate and
00:45:28.680 make a difference and an impact and
00:45:31.000 I had I know KJ you like to you do
00:45:33.560 martial arts. So I was training with a
00:45:35.880 UFC fighter. I was running up mountains.
00:45:39.240 I was trying to push my body I think
00:45:41.760 because cuz I wasn't in the the business
00:45:44.040 game at the level I wanted. And
00:45:47.160 I was actually training with my UFC
00:45:48.600 fighter. I was training for a match and
00:45:51.160 I got punched really hard.
00:45:53.651 >> [laughter]
00:45:53.960 >> And
00:45:55.240 teeth like flew out of my mouth. And I
00:45:58.280 went home to my wife and I'd been
00:46:01.320 reading a lot about AI.
00:46:03.680 And she's like, "Are you sure you don't
00:46:04.960 want to go back into business or do
00:46:07.160 something else?"
00:46:08.320 >> Yeah.
00:46:08.800 >> And
00:46:09.240 >> can keep your teeth intact.
00:46:10.480 >> keep your teeth. And so, I One is I
00:46:12.640 thought AI would be a lot safer place,
00:46:14.600 but it was that pull. It was It didn't
00:46:16.880 matter how far I ran up a mountain or
00:46:19.800 how hard I got punched. I just I wanted
00:46:22.760 to innovate in logistics.
00:46:24.800 >> Punched or choked, it's really humbling.
00:46:27.057 >> [laughter]
00:46:28.640 >> Yeah. And so, I think that that is a
00:46:31.000 testament to the the real founders and
00:46:33.400 entrepreneurs that are out there. I
00:46:35.600 think that you can find somebody that
00:46:37.400 wants to start a business, and whether
00:46:38.680 it goes well or doesn't, they're like,
00:46:40.760 "Okay, I did it once. I can just go back
00:46:43.040 into corporate America." Not that
00:46:44.200 there's anything wrong with that, but
00:46:45.920 every single founder that I've ever
00:46:47.120 talked to, a real entrepreneur, has said
00:46:48.680 that exact same thing. There's that itch
00:46:51.000 of, "Okay, I had a
00:46:53.600 success, whether it was an acquisition
00:46:55.400 or sale, but I can't just sit here and
00:46:58.160 not do anything and wait on the
00:46:59.400 sidelines."
00:47:00.240 >> It's wiring in the brain.
00:47:02.000 >> Yeah. Yeah.
00:47:03.360 Um so, you were talking about the AI
00:47:05.200 space.
00:47:06.440 Why did you decide to start Envoy? Was
00:47:09.200 it Again, you saw everything that's
00:47:10.720 going on with AI, this is the next wave,
00:47:13.360 was it just the timing of things? What
00:47:15.760 really kind of drew this out?
00:47:17.720 >> So,
00:47:18.720 part of it was I I was
00:47:20.880 getting pulled in by my friends to look
00:47:23.160 at the V1 applications, and they wanted
00:47:26.400 to
00:47:27.400 see what I thought. And I started to
00:47:29.520 look at the logistics companies that
00:47:32.320 were starting to come out in that time
00:47:34.040 frame, and I thought I could do it
00:47:35.760 better.
00:47:36.760 >> Yeah.
00:47:37.480 >> And I thought there was a different way.
00:47:39.240 And so, we started building this AI
00:47:41.320 orchestration, we started thinking about
00:47:43.080 the forward deployed engineer model, and
00:47:45.160 we just didn't believe that it was
00:47:46.800 correct. We thought it was wrong. Uh and
00:47:49.600 I mentioned this earlier, it's if you
00:47:51.440 have large contracts, if you're
00:47:52.920 Palantir, and you're innovating uh for a
00:47:55.720 large army contract that's 10 years,
00:47:58.360 yeah, 5 years, great. You can send an
00:48:00.360 NFT, you can
00:48:01.920 look at the SOP, but freight is in
00:48:04.280 constant most motion.
00:48:05.640 >> Yeah.
00:48:06.560 >> And I don't believe that that model will
00:48:09.040 compound over time. I think it's a
00:48:10.960 results outcomes based model that AI
00:48:13.800 companies are going to need to produce.
00:48:15.480 It's going to look closer to what a BPO
00:48:17.520 looks like today.
00:48:18.520 >> Mhm.
00:48:19.000 >> And that's what's interesting. It's this
00:48:20.840 blending, I'm calling it Lass. It's a
00:48:23.240 blending of logistics and services.
00:48:25.320 >> Yeah.
00:48:25.720 >> So it's not technology logistics
00:48:27.280 services and technology. It's not SaaS,
00:48:30.480 it's not a brokerage. It's going to be
00:48:32.600 Lass. And we're starting to see some V1
00:48:34.880 companies come out. I think we'll see
00:48:37.040 more in the in the next several months.
00:48:40.000 >> I would think you have a unique lens
00:48:41.480 having sold built a brokerage and a
00:48:44.840 pricing tool and then coming on the AI
00:48:47.040 side where I think some of the other
00:48:48.640 startups in the space, the version one
00:48:50.040 you're talking about, they're from
00:48:51.520 outside the industry some of them.
00:48:53.760 >> And and you know, in certain respects
00:48:55.640 that's advantage that can be an
00:48:56.880 advantage.
00:48:57.760 >> Absolutely, fresh eyes.
00:48:58.360 >> But I'm a believer experience teaches
00:49:00.520 wisdom.
00:49:01.960 And wisdom trumps wisdom creates trust.
00:49:07.400 I I think that innovation in our
00:49:09.600 industry needs to happen from inside the
00:49:11.880 industry. It's not going to happen from
00:49:14.080 outside of the industry. And so
00:49:17.280 yeah, just a different different style.
00:49:19.160 I love competing is part of the fun in
00:49:21.320 business. So I have a lot of respect for
00:49:22.880 all those companies. We talk all the
00:49:24.800 founders and
00:49:26.400 it's healthy competition.
00:49:28.600 >> Is there anything specific, and I know
00:49:30.040 we're talking about the the hatchet and
00:49:31.560 the axe before, is there anything
00:49:33.280 specific that you feel like you learned
00:49:35.080 from Load Delivered, from Logistical
00:49:36.720 Labs, from your venture time,
00:49:39.080 that you're taking into this, you know,
00:49:41.200 Envoy, of making sure that you do this
00:49:43.880 or don't do this as you continue and
00:49:45.600 scale things?
00:49:47.240 >> I think part of it is everyone
00:49:49.680 uh
00:49:51.800 trying to be the the CEO I always wanted
00:49:54.480 to be, the founder I always wanted to be
00:49:56.160 in my 20s.
00:49:57.520 Uh
00:49:58.520 a little less I think it's hard to
00:50:00.560 everyone has this idea of of how they
00:50:02.240 should operate a business.
00:50:04.720 And my goal this time around is is to do
00:50:06.720 exactly what I want and do it quickly.
00:50:09.000 >> Yeah.
00:50:11.160 >> Making decisions faster
00:50:13.280 and again just building a great team
00:50:14.760 around around myself and co-founder.
00:50:17.600 >> Yeah.
00:50:18.800 As also being somebody that's entrenched
00:50:21.320 in AI every day, I feel like you can
00:50:23.240 talk to some people and some others that
00:50:25.440 say that this is AI of the future we're
00:50:28.080 super far along with this. A lot of
00:50:29.520 other people are saying we're just
00:50:30.560 scratching the surface. Where do you
00:50:32.200 think that we're at in the AI journey of
00:50:34.760 things?
00:50:36.640 >> I think it's early. I think if you
00:50:38.200 believe that super intelligence will
00:50:40.360 happen in the next couple years then
00:50:44.280 um
00:50:45.400 we're early. You know there's this
00:50:47.600 there's this rhetoric in San Francisco
00:50:49.400 that like all white collar jobs will die
00:50:52.360 and be eradicated and you should
00:50:53.800 basically go learn how to be an HVAC an
00:50:56.680 HVAC or or do something in the services.
00:51:00.400 Let's say that's true. The same way that
00:51:03.040 driverless cars were true.
00:51:04.720 >> Yeah.
00:51:05.760 >> It's always going to take two to three
00:51:08.240 times longer than people think.
00:51:10.440 >> Mhm.
00:51:10.880 >> Um now it might be a little accelerated
00:51:13.200 in this hype cycle with AI tremendous
00:51:15.520 amount of money being poured into data
00:51:17.760 centers. Data centers will help compute.
00:51:20.680 There's going to be a lot of opportunity
00:51:22.320 for things to move fast but
00:51:24.840 um
00:51:26.360 not in logistics.
00:51:28.280 >> What is super intelligence?
00:51:30.360 >> Um
00:51:31.240 you're going to have to ask the the
00:51:32.360 folks at Stanford.
00:51:33.600 >> [laughter]
00:51:34.255 [clears throat]
00:51:34.560 >> Uh
00:51:35.400 they're working on super intelligence
00:51:37.320 which is you know essentially we're
00:51:39.920 thinking about multi-channel agents
00:51:42.440 agents talking to agents and passing
00:51:44.400 along like super intelligence is
00:51:48.040 uh
00:51:48.720 >> The next step.
00:51:49.640 >> Yeah. Whole 'nother ball game.
00:51:50.840 >> Yeah, we're going to reach a singularity
00:51:52.320 or not, but to get back to your point
00:51:54.440 about it takes longer. You know, we
00:51:56.640 heard the hype from whether it was Uber
00:51:58.120 Freight or Uber about autonomous trucks.
00:52:00.640 You know, I think last summer you and I
00:52:01.680 got in our first Waymo.
00:52:02.680 >> Yeah.
00:52:03.400 >> So, I think in logistics and
00:52:05.040 transportation, also when you're
00:52:06.200 building like assets you have to move it
00:52:07.680 does take longer. There's also like the
00:52:09.640 proof of concept of making sure like
00:52:11.000 there's not injuries or deaths or things
00:52:12.840 like that. And I think there's some
00:52:13.920 proof out there now with full service
00:52:15.720 full service driving cars like
00:52:17.840 the percentage is it's way safer to be
00:52:19.400 in them.
00:52:19.920 >> Yeah.
00:52:20.480 >> But it's um it's going to be interesting
00:52:22.440 how it plays out. So, I guess
00:52:24.760 pivot to a question.
00:52:26.360 If we're getting close to super
00:52:27.880 intelligence, you have a young daughter,
00:52:30.360 my daughter's a little bit older, you
00:52:31.400 have young boys,
00:52:32.640 you know, what is the job market or
00:52:35.240 what's going to be available in 10 or 15
00:52:37.800 years when we look at robotics and AI
00:52:39.360 coming together?
00:52:41.560 >> I mean, it's wild.
00:52:44.880 >> That's that's that's the type of uh
00:52:48.120 question that I don't think anyone
00:52:50.840 really knows the answer.
00:52:52.200 >> Yeah.
00:52:52.640 >> Yeah.
00:52:53.960 Sometimes you you want to wake up and do
00:52:56.280 you just move to the mountains deep deep
00:52:57.920 in the mountains [laughter] and
00:52:59.640 uh
00:53:00.840 I think it's more like taking a step
00:53:03.000 back and just being like what where are
00:53:04.760 we at as a society? What are we doing as
00:53:07.360 a society? And we're spending a lot of
00:53:09.400 time like this.
00:53:11.280 >> Yeah.
00:53:11.960 >> On our phone. A lot of time like this.
00:53:15.200 And
00:53:17.920 forget about what happens in 15 years.
00:53:19.720 What's going to happen when our kids see
00:53:21.480 us like all just walking around like
00:53:23.400 this on their on our phones or
00:53:24.920 communicating like this versus spending
00:53:27.160 more time sort of one-on-one with them.
00:53:29.240 And so, I think first it's like
00:53:32.000 detaching from technology.
00:53:34.360 Um
00:53:35.040 And then second, teach your kids how to
00:53:36.920 be relentless, teach them how to be a
00:53:38.640 problem solvers.
00:53:40.520 Uh I think those are are That's really
00:53:42.960 important, but we don't know if there's
00:53:46.040 you know, lawyers, I don't know,
00:53:48.000 doctors, sure we'll need doctors, but
00:53:50.600 will they have a different role?
00:53:52.440 Freight brokers definitely will have a
00:53:53.840 different role. Uh,
00:53:55.760 yeah, world's changing fast and you
00:53:57.520 know,
00:53:58.480 it's on us to navigate through it with
00:54:00.520 our children.
00:54:01.240 >> Yeah. It's funny that you said freight
00:54:03.080 brokers cuz that was one of the things
00:54:04.280 that we as we get to the tail end of the
00:54:05.880 conversation, I was very curious if you
00:54:07.520 had an opinion on Do you think freight
00:54:09.360 brokers are still going to be a thing in
00:54:10.880 10, 20 years?
00:54:15.000 >> So, when I was growing up there was
00:54:16.680 stock brokers.
00:54:18.000 >> Yeah.
00:54:18.280 >> And now there's Robinhood.
00:54:19.720 >> Yeah.
00:54:20.960 >> Stock brokers took a couple points of
00:54:23.040 every trade. Robinhood, you can trade
00:54:25.800 make as many trades as you want. And
00:54:29.480 just think about that construct and I
00:54:31.440 think there
00:54:33.520 there are some parallels to freight
00:54:36.200 brokerage. That said, stocks aren't in
00:54:39.440 motion and trucks are.
00:54:41.520 And so, it will never go Robinhood, but
00:54:45.840 uh, freight brokerage will will feel
00:54:47.920 very different in the next cycle.
00:54:49.960 >> Yeah.
00:54:51.120 >> That's a really good analogy.
00:54:52.560 >> Yeah.
00:54:53.320 >> I should be in Chicago, yeah.
00:54:54.680 >> Yep. And as we wrap things up, what we
00:54:57.560 always love to do is is give you the
00:54:59.440 mic. A 45 second minute, however long
00:55:01.680 you want to go for, talk to us about
00:55:03.480 anything that you feel like anybody
00:55:04.800 that's watching the Founders Lounge
00:55:06.200 didn't get insights to, talk about
00:55:08.680 Envoy, talk about what you're excited
00:55:10.160 about in this space, really open mic
00:55:11.880 time for you.
00:55:14.320 >> Open mic, uh,
00:55:16.000 >> If anything.
00:55:16.800 >> So,
00:55:17.613 >> [snorts]
00:55:17.880 >> you know, I used to be a rapper. And no,
00:55:20.160 I wasn't.
00:55:20.640 >> Oh, I was going to say oh man, I didn't
00:55:22.480 know you fought in the UFC, you know,
00:55:23.560 that's
00:55:23.720 >> No, but I'll give you this, this is a
00:55:25.560 random fact. So,
00:55:27.600 uh, back in the day before there was
00:55:30.480 reality TV, there was documentaries. So,
00:55:33.720 I was on one of the first reality TVs
00:55:36.320 for high school kids
00:55:38.280 uh, in Chicago, Illinois in 2000. It was
00:55:40.640 called American High. It was on Fox TV.
00:55:44.080 Didn't go so well, so we later got
00:55:45.560 booted to PBS.
00:55:47.400 But yeah, that was my entry into being
00:55:49.240 in front of the camera was I was 20
00:55:51.560 years old and
00:55:52.960 getting filmed every day in in my senior
00:55:54.880 year in high school.
00:55:56.040 >> Wow.
00:55:56.680 >> That's pretty interesting. Now, and
00:55:57.840 that's not just being filmed, but it's
00:55:59.640 also I think we were setting up you were
00:56:01.640 talking about your voice. What was it
00:56:03.640 about JB Hunt you're able to gain some
00:56:05.360 business?
00:56:06.600 >> So
00:56:07.040 >> Through we were kind of chopping it up
00:56:08.080 just for a little bit.
00:56:08.520 >> Yeah. So what made my career, I'll give
00:56:10.280 a shout out to Lori Patrick who's still
00:56:12.120 at JB Hunt today. I was 22 years old. I
00:56:15.240 wanted so badly to work with JB Hunt and
00:56:17.920 I finally on the night shift found a way
00:56:20.840 to to get access to some of their
00:56:22.880 trucks, called back the next day. They
00:56:25.200 worked with us and I was so proud of
00:56:27.960 myself for navigating, using my brain,
00:56:30.800 only to find out a month later the only
00:56:32.960 reason she let me in and started working
00:56:35.560 cuz she thought I had a nice voice.
00:56:38.760 And yeah, so that was really deflated
00:56:41.800 me.
00:56:42.760 >> But whatever gets it done, you still
00:56:43.840 have got it done in the end, which is
00:56:45.240 good.
00:56:46.680 Well, I think that we have thoroughly
00:56:48.920 enjoyed this conversation, really
00:56:50.200 getting a peek behind the scenes of
00:56:52.160 successes, failures, really
00:56:53.560 understanding you as a person and wanted
00:56:55.960 to thank you so much for taking the time
00:56:57.200 to come down here, hang out with us in
00:56:58.640 our studio and and let us grill you for
00:57:00.840 a little bit.
00:57:01.440 >> Thanks Coleman. Thanks KJ. I appreciate
00:57:03.800 all you and Talent Solvers does
00:57:06.080 for me in the logistics community.
00:57:07.640 Thanks a lot, guys. [music]
00:57:08.640 >> Thank you.
00:57:09.120 >> Right on.
00:57:14.859 >> [music]
00:58:09.800 >> Mhm.

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